Coastals

[David]

On Thursday February 11 the Virginia Senate Committee on Agriculture, Conservation, and Natural Resources will begin hearings on Senate Bill 564, sponsored by Sen. Patsy Ticer (D-Alexandria,) Sen. Dave Marsden (D-Prince William,) Sen. Ralph Northam (D-Norfolk,) Sen. Mary Margaret Whipple (D-Arlington,) and Del. Mark Herring (D-Loudoun.)

This "Streamsaver Bill" would forbid surface mines from dumping their waste into streams, as is commonly done now. The waste is termed fill by the Corps of Engineers and thus it passes regulatory muster.

This practice totally covers many small streams, eliminating all aquatic and riparian life, and it has both short and long term effects on water quality. Whitewater streams such as Russell Fork, Pound River, Guest River, Clinch River, McClure River, and Powell River are or could be affected. Though of course the bill only affects Virginia, similar mining operations have been proposed in the Gauley and Lower Yough watersheds. A Webster County paddler told me that although Webster did not have any active coal mines, there was a lot of coal and the owners were only waiting for the right market conditions.

So the issue of mining coal in a fashion that can best protect the watershed is an important issue for the river running community. Sierra Club, for which I am Water Quality Chair in Virginia, is strongly promoting this bill, and I personally support it 100%. Bill Tanger of Float Fishermen of Virginia has asked FFV to support SB564, and from my emails I believe they will. I ask Coastals to support this bill.

Though we have a 3 person Executive Committee for Coastals that includes Raymond Williams, Barb Franko, and Val Puster that can approve this, I am putting this out there so all can know the issue, ask questions, and weigh in. Though the bill has little chance of passing the General Assembly this time around, it is a big step to getting the word out and if the paddling community is behind it it will help build favorable publicity and momentum for the future.

The bill would not ban underground mining or surface mining. Yes it would make coal and therefore electricity more expensive but it would help leave a legacy of livable coalfields when the coal is all played out.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?101+ful+SB564+pdf

[hazmat]

Please be more specific about "waste" .

This is a bad time to bring up anything that might hurt employment, when the chinese take us over they will decimate the enviroment.

Attaching something to the bill to add additional funds to local community colleges to reeducate locals put out of work would be good, but with tax revenues down this is highly unlikely.

OP.....What do you do for a living and for whom?

[Paddle Daddy]

If the Chinese really want Appalachian Virginia then I guess they can have it, but come on. "China taking over" is hardly a serious answer to a sensible environmental regulation. Simply because a regulation would raise a cost of something is not a reason not to do it. In fact, to the extent the China card can be played it is an argument for raising the domestic cost of coal-generated electricity, which would relatively stimulate the demand and domestic industry for renewable energy generated power, with respect to which the Chinese are now trying to corner the market with some success (see the NYT last Sunday).

[hazmat]

To be clear,I do not think that China wants southwest VA. Raising the cost of energy through regulation simply adds cost with no benifit to our ecomomy except employing more beauracrats (hardly a benefit)and fewer humans. The only renewable energy source that could even think about replacing even a small portion of the energy produced by coal is nukes. Ask Skippy from the Sierra Club how he feels about nukes. The last statistic I heard was that China starts a new coal fired power plant once week. I doubt these plants and the mines feeding them are anywhere near as clean as ours.

How about taxing fossil fuels to fund grants to develop cleaner energy sources that we then export to china. To bad our government could never do that without screwing it up.

The Sierra Club is evil.

It is easy to put a coal miner out of work while sitting in an oversized house that is kept at 75 degrees in the winter and 72 degrees in the summer; driving an oversized vehicle and getting a government paycheck.

This is not an attack on paddledaddy but the Sierra Club


How are the chinese able to corner the clean energy market? do they have the sierra club there?

[Paddle Daddy]

Hmm. I guess that is why China is investing so heavily in trying to corner the market for wind turbines. They just want to throw their money away on a technology that will never work and nobody will ever use ... or ... maybe ... nah, let's rant about some mythical Sierra Club stereotype, throw in some gratuitous swipes at bureaucrats, and feel better about NOT doing anything about companies trashing our backyard for their own short-term profits. Sarah P, sign me UP, I think I can see Russia from here too!

PS to Hazmat - no offense, just havin' some good "clean fuel" fun ...

Love, PD

[hazmat]

I am a big fan of clean fuel. The oodles of windmills going up in Mt. storm area are imported from Europe. Problem being windmills cannot produce enough juice to slow demand for Fossil fuels.

What really gets me seriously upset is how we middle class suburbanites will send our kids to schools that look like the taj mahal while the kids of coal miners go to school in rat holes. We then make jokes about how backwards they are. Then we try like hell to regulate their jobs away knowing full well that they do not have the educational and financial resources to relocate or re-educate for a different job.

Nobody wants to see the enviroment trashed.

Ever hear a six year old tell you of his aspirations of getting on disablity. I have.

The Sierra Club is way too single minded not to be seriously scutinized on every issue it supports.

Skippy from the Sierra Club should post estimates on job losses due to this new regulation so at least we can know how many more families we will be supporting with food stamps, medicaid and welfare.

Also note that the sponsors Sen. Patsy Ticer (D-Alexandria,) Sen. Dave Marsden (D-Prince William,) Sen. Ralph Northam (D-Norfolk,) Sen. Mary Margaret Whipple (D-Arlington,) and Del. Mark Herring (D-Loudoun) are all democrates from Northern VA/Norfolk whose constituents suck heavily on the government teat. These are not the people who should be drawing up regulations for the rest of us.



Later Gator

[pjstutts]

Do jobs in the coal industry improve the lives of miners, their families, and their communities? History seems to say no.

It would be great if the Democrats in Northern Va could stay out of it, and the free market exchange between energy consumer and coal company could weigh the costs and benefits of coal production. Unfortunately, the costs of coal production are not reflected in the market price of coal-fired energy. Burying streams with debris from mining operations has serious environmental and human health costs. Guess who pays for those costs? Massey energy doesn't, nor do middle class suburbanites. The communities that surround these valley fills bear the brunt of the burden through rising healthcare costs and a deterioration of their standard of living, and are told that it is what they have to deal with if they want a job. Bullshit.

I don't know the details of this bill, but the jobs argument is a tired one. It is unlikely that consumers will change their behavior if their rates increase by a few cents per kilowatt, so the cost of cleanup will likely be passed to the consumer with few jobs lost. If miners do lose their jobs, I'm sure some new ones will pop up in the waste transport business. At least their children will still be able to go fishing when the Chinese take over.

[bambam]

[David]

The waste is the biomass (sometimes the trees are harvested, sometimes not,) the soil and the non-combustible rock. Calling it fill is a legal word to let it go into streams as if it were part of a planned construction project, which it is not. The only plan is to get rid of it, which is why it is waste. Fill in a construction project has planned and definite physical characteristics to provide a foundation, control water infiltration and runoff, etc.

If the coal is mined with regulations to keep the waste, or overburden as it is sometimes called, out of the water, it will create jobs. If the decision is made not to mine at all, it will cost jobs. This is an example why national enviro laws are needed, so as not to give WV and KY an advantage if this VA law is passed (which is highly doubtful this session.) 40 years ago I read "Night Comes to the Cumberlands" by Harry Caudill. It is a history of the KY coal fields up to that time. A point he makes is why is Switzerland, with steeper colder mountains with no coal, rich, and the southern Appalachian coalfields are poor? Another thing Mr. Caudill showed was the massive unemployment that resulted from mechanization and competition from oil (for ships and boilers) in the 50's and into what was then the present time. At the WV Visitor Center at exit 9 on I-77 at Princeton, there is a Vietnam Veterans Monument, with a slab for each of several of the surrounding counties in both VA and WV. There are a few names of the fallen from the farming counties. When you get to the coal counties, the list goes on and on. Another good book out of Kentucky is by Wendell Berry "What Are People For?"

Who is making "jokes about how backward they are?"

Hazmat: "Nobody wants to see the environment trashed." In July and September I was at hearings on proposed VA stormwater regulations. A variation of Hazmat's line was the standard opener for the developers.

Putting people to work doing what needs to be done is the core of our national challenge. And moving beyond fossil fuels is what needs to be done. As Paddledaddy pointed to, the Chinese, after taking an export hit when the USA economy crashed, decided not to wait on us and are pressing ahead with wind generators, solar panels, and a national high-speed rail passenger system. What's stopping us in America? Not the Sierra Club.

But this is about paddling. Clean water and plenty of it, and safe legal access to it, that's all we want.

[hazmat]

Quote: This is an example why national enviro laws are needed, so as not to give WV and KY an advantage if this VA law is passed

Reply: Substitue GLOBAL for "national", CHINA for "WV and KY" and USA for "VA".

The Sierra Club seems to understand the concept but will only apply it when it hurts the US economy and furthers its radical agenda.

Quote: A point he makes is why is Switzerland, with steeper colder mountains with no coal, rich, and the southern Appalachian coalfields are poor?

Reply: The answer is simple. Switzerland has very few natural resources and over centuries developed a highly skilled work force (think gears in watches) to add value to its scant resources and imported raw materials.
West Virginia on the other hand was hardly settled until coal mining began in the mid 1800's(people moved there to mine), and the population peaked in the 50's when mechanized mining started to eliminate jobs faster then they were created. West Virginia is overflowing with natural resourses. Apples and Oranges. I would not read any book written by a guy who could not figure that out.

No one denies that the coal industry rapes labor. So did most industry of the era. The garment industry and factories 1900's -1940's were as bad. Should we shut down those industries. How about advicating for improving working conditions and benefits, rather than taking away the job.

Quote: At the WV Visitor Center at exit 9 on I-77 at Princeton, there is a Vietnam Veterans Monument, with a slab for each of several of the surrounding counties in both VA and WV. There are a few names of the fallen from the farming counties. When you get to the coal counties, the list goes on and on...

Reply: I don't understand what the point is. The population of farming counties was low in comparison to mining counties. So I would expect more causualties out of the more populated areas. The state of New York has more veterans than North Dakota.

Quote: Hazmat: "Nobody wants to see the environment trashed." In July and September I was at hearings on proposed VA stormwater regulations. A variation of Hazmat's line was the standard opener for the developers.

Reply: Just because the developers and I have the same arguement does not invalidate the arguement. This is typical of the Sierra Club: Developers = Bad. Developers simply find ways to harvest resourses to meet demand. If you live in a house anywhere near a population center a developer made that possible. If you use electricity a developer found a way to harvest the resourses nessesary to produce the juice and meet demand. To quote Pogo, I have seen the enemy and he is us". The Sierra Club will not stop until we are living in mud huts in darkness.


Quote: decided not to wait on us and are pressing ahead with wind generators, solar panels, and a national high-speed rail passenger system. What's stopping us in America? Not the Sierra Club.

Reply: Countries with large percentages of power supplied by wind are highly subsidized. If there were some way to make any of these things financially viable those evil developers would be fighting each other to be the ones to do it. This country has high speed rail between Boston and DC. Amtrac has never and likely will never operate in the black.


Final Point: My responces are to David the Sierra Club advacate not David the Coastal. For all I know this may be a fine bill, but the presence of the Sierra Club should give moderates the clue that a thorough examination is in order.

[bambam]

[hazmat]

What I was saying was: David accurately pointed out that if Virginia passes the law it will have the effect of moving the mining (and jobs and enviromental problems) to WV or KY. To solve that he stated a need for national level regulation.

My point was national legislation would have the same effect; moving mines (and jobs and enviromental problems) abroad.

The solution is conservation and ECONOMICALLY FEASIBLE new technologies. Lower demand. Regulations, while sometimes the best answer, simply moves the problem somewhere else. Short sighted, short term solution that just make us a bunch of NIMBYs.

I will rescind "radical"

Substitute any of the following word for radical: Short sighted, polyanneish, idealistic, suspicious, slanted, goofy, loopy, nutty, economy killing, craptastic, commie pinko, hippy, or pedophilic.

Well, maybe not pedophilic.

On a serious note I think it would be responsible as a club to solicit a comment from the informed (unlike me) opposition to the bill. Instead of just hearing from the Sierra Club. Both sides are slanted but I would like to hear BOTH sides. Coastals has far to many members to just blindly follow the Sierra Club's lead.


Peace and Love,

Hazmat

[sganarelle]

Think of it this way.

Why are private citizens required to pay or find a responsible way to dispose of waste when corporations are allowed the privilege of disposing of their waste in any manner they see fit so not to affect their margins. Paying for sewage and trash removal affects my gear budget. As well, corporations and those who found them can declare bankruptcy with little or repercussions leaving a mess for the tax payers to clean up.

This bill needs the support of outdoor enthusiasts and while it does not address the greater problem it does at least bring the problem to the table for discussion.

Whether NIMBY or not, I am sadly content with fighting for a win here in VA to help set precedent for other states to follow a better example.

[David]

It looks like Stephanieb has a post with the logistics of the hearing on SB564 tomorrow, with a rally for those in support beforehand. 3pm rally 4pm hearings, all on Capitol Hill. Come in support or just come to watch, listen, and learn if not. If you are against there will be a contingent of coal miners there for you to show solidarity with.

BamBam, here is the operative language in the bill:

6. No spoil, refuse, silt, slurry, tailings, or other waste materials from coal surface mining and/or reclamation operations will be disposed of in any intermittent, perennial, or ephemeral stream.

The entire bill is linked on my first post. It is to amend existing law. Surface mining is is regulated in Virginia, and this is the law that enables that regulation. On the link, existing law is in regular font, the changes proposed in SB564 are in italics.

[hazmat]

Being a NIMBY is not all bad, as the rest of the world is NIMBY-fied. If we are not then we are made the dump.