This is more of a probe to see who has run this section than a trip report.
Did and ELF (350ish cfs) run of the Upper Rose River in Madison Co. today. Hiked in from the Shen. Park gate about 1/2 mile and took out at the first bridge. It was mostly just a recon mission (since about 3/4 mile of the creek is between posted land and isn't very visible from the road) to see what it was like before hitting it at optimal flow. Needless to say it was a lot of bouncing down rocks, which I expected......but from what I saw this section looks like it would be pretty rowdy with 300-400 cfs more. So if anyone has any info on the MIN/MAX runnable levels for this that would be awesome!
http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=VA-67 ... 5&t=p&z=15
Upper Rose River
Moderators: admins, GinnyN, mod1, mod3, Raymond, slo2rol, mod2
Upper Rose River
Trevor
A well known C boater from the late 80's, early 90's, Andy Bridge, and a few friends paddled it...15+ years ago. They hiked up past the gate. I don't know how far they hiked up but I think it was at least a mile if not two.
I had hiked it in low water previous to their trip and didn't see anything real exciting. The pictures from that trip showed some pretty good, steep, rapids. I believe the article was in a AW magazine but I have no idea what year that was...
I had hiked it in low water previous to their trip and didn't see anything real exciting. The pictures from that trip showed some pretty good, steep, rapids. I believe the article was in a AW magazine but I have no idea what year that was...
Bob
Thanks for the info Bob! Would be cool to see those photos. I've run the upper rapidan 9 er 10 times. I was sooo stoked to see those pictures you posted of the upper rapidan a while back. It was nice to see what I looked like pre 95, 96 flood. I bike and hike up there a good bit and spent a lot of time up there clearing wood the last year.
Ya, I've hiked the Rose quite a bit. Only started paddling a year and a half ago so I'm just now looking at it with a different view. I walked in a half mile, but above thaIt looks like CL III for a couple miles until where the fire road starts into the switchbacks after that it gets pretty steep again. The short mile + section I hit was the section i was most curious in since I couldnt see it. Me and a friend looked at it when the Robinson was reading 1500cfs, but we backed off it and ran the lower CL III section instead. Wise choice in retrospect now that Ive seen it at much less than half the flow. On the google terrain map, the creek appears to drop 200+ ft/mile in that short section. A couple 6-8 ft drop and just generly steep. I woulda snagged some photos if i wouldn't have been solo.
Thanks again Bob!
Ya, I've hiked the Rose quite a bit. Only started paddling a year and a half ago so I'm just now looking at it with a different view. I walked in a half mile, but above thaIt looks like CL III for a couple miles until where the fire road starts into the switchbacks after that it gets pretty steep again. The short mile + section I hit was the section i was most curious in since I couldnt see it. Me and a friend looked at it when the Robinson was reading 1500cfs, but we backed off it and ran the lower CL III section instead. Wise choice in retrospect now that Ive seen it at much less than half the flow. On the google terrain map, the creek appears to drop 200+ ft/mile in that short section. A couple 6-8 ft drop and just generly steep. I woulda snagged some photos if i wouldn't have been solo.
Thanks again Bob!
Trevor
Worthy of note, depending on how high up you go, portions of the Rapidan and the nearby upper upper Conway (a.k.a. Middle) rivers run through a wildlife management area and hence you will need some sort of license to be there.
http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/wmas/maps/rapidan.pdf
Ken Dubel
http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/wmas/maps/rapidan.pdf
Ken Dubel
I have no idea how, or even if, you can look up old articles from AW magazine. My best(worst?) guess, I'd say it was in the early to mid 90's.TSayler wrote:Thanks for the info Bob! Would be cool to see those photos. I've run the upper rapidan 9 er 10 times. I was sooo stoked to see those pictures you posted of the upper rapidan a while back. It was nice to see what I looked like pre 95, 96 flood. I bike and hike up there a good bit and spent a lot of time up there clearing wood the last year.
Ya, I've hiked the Rose quite a bit. Only started paddling a year and a half ago so I'm just now looking at it with a different view. I walked in a half mile, but above thaIt looks like CL III for a couple miles until where the fire road starts into the switchbacks after that it gets pretty steep again. The short mile + section I hit was the section i was most curious in since I couldnt see it. Me and a friend looked at it when the Robinson was reading 1500cfs, but we backed off it and ran the lower CL III section instead. Wise choice in retrospect now that Ive seen it at much less than half the flow. On the google terrain map, the creek appears to drop 200+ ft/mile in that short section. A couple 6-8 ft drop and just generly steep. I woulda snagged some photos if i wouldn't have been solo.
Thanks again Bob!
You've run the Rapidan up IN the park? Not the normal section in guide books, 9-10 times? Nice! I don't think I've been on it more than that. It's hard to catch at a decent level. I've been skunked more than a few times and once it was so high we got off while we still had the chance. It was all any of us could do just to maintain and there would have been no way to help rescue anyone in trouble or swimming. Think flush drowning. I'm not trying to sound arrogant but I was a pretty good boater back then, as were the others in the group, and we knew better than to try and continue. It was to the top of the banks and scary fast!
There was only one rapid that got significantly changed by the flood...at least the section we normally paddled. This is the one...
It's just above the island you can see right next to the road with the massive log jam on the right side(which used to be the best side to run).
This is the right side line at low water...but still a LOT of fun! This one...
Gary got blown off line there...
As always those pics don't do the creek justice.
The last couple times I've been up there goofing off the creek was pretty congested with wood. The last time I ran it, 10 years ago(?), there were creek wide strainers every 50 yards. We ran about a half mile, portaging every 50 yards, then gave up.
BamBam, you are correct about the WMA property. It starts at the lower bridge, where we normally put-in, and continues upstream to the park boundary. There is a small parking space at the park gate but I don't know if it's on park or WMA property. Anyway, there is not much in the way of rapids from there down to below the cabins (about a mile). There are some real nice trails in the Rapidan WMA. Too bad they are off limits to bikes.
Harris Haynie, Dave Collins and I put on just below the cabins once. You need a LOT of water to catch it high enough to run up that high. That parking spot, pull off, is on WMA property. I remember coming around a bend in fast moving water and there was a HUGE Spruce tree across the entire creek with about 3" of air space...and no eddies! We had to run up on shore and jump out of the boat before it slid back in to the current backwards!!
Rose river...
I hiked up past the first switchback but turned around. There is a cool, tight, rapid right at the switch back(looks like a fault line crease) but I didn't see anything below worth the effort to carry a boat up.
Good call on not putting on when it was high. Those creeks are smoking fast when they are high and one simple mistake could result in a lost boat, beat up boater, or a lot worse.
A buddy of mine messed his hip up for a few months swimming into the next drop at the bottom of this big drop between the bridges on the Rapidan at a low level....THIS IS ON THE RAPIDAN, NOT THE ROSE...
I'm not trying to tell you what to do but I'd at least have someone on the bank with a rope when soloing on those creeks. Never know when a simple broach or pin could leave you unable to free yourself. In cold weather it could be a fatal mistake.
The pictures from that article showed what looked like class IV+...with a "boatable" water level.
There are some nice straight forward rapids on the Rapidan like this...
That could be run over and over, even when the rest of the creek was too low.
While I'm thinking about it, does anyone have any contact info for Paul Helbert? I have an 8" x 10" of that last pic I'd like to get to him. I don't think he knew what he was getting into that day but he did a great job! It was the first time I had ever met him or Eli. They came up with some mutual friends. Ely was up there styling in an old Batmax(?)(glass) C-1! Unfortunately I have no pics of Eli except this one...
Here is the link to all those pictures again if anyone else may be interested...
https://picasaweb.google.com/1081884491 ... directlink
Bob
Nice! I recognize most of the pictures......I haven't run anything up above the 1st bridge. Too much way too much wood. I kind of ran out of motivation after clearing the lower section, but it looks really good all the way up to the cabins. Living within 30 mins of the creeks in Madison sure helps when it comes to catching them. It does take a good rain to get that creek running tho. I have more low flow runs than anything and only a couple runs on good water. The creek does mellow out down below the spout waterfall, but still fun class III. Here are some photos/vids of our first run down the creek and a couple of later runs. Your right that pictures dont do it justice.
https://picasaweb.google.com/1150236362 ... directlink
As far as "park rules"......the first time we were trying put on we did have a run in with a Ranger. I checked the SNP website before we even thought of running it to make sure there were no rules we were breaking and I didn't see anything, but he told us it was illegal to paddle inside the Park. I called the park headquarters to get some clear answers on the matter.....they were very confused as to what I was asking. It boiled down to the fact that they dont recognize that the Park "has any navigable waters". I finally spoke with the Chief of Outdoor rec. for the park and he said paddling IS ok and legal. Also told me that if there was a need (meaning if we had more run ins with rangers who saw it as illegal) he would change the wording in the Park rule book to state that boaters have authorized use of the creeks as well.
https://picasaweb.google.com/1150236362 ... directlink
As far as "park rules"......the first time we were trying put on we did have a run in with a Ranger. I checked the SNP website before we even thought of running it to make sure there were no rules we were breaking and I didn't see anything, but he told us it was illegal to paddle inside the Park. I called the park headquarters to get some clear answers on the matter.....they were very confused as to what I was asking. It boiled down to the fact that they dont recognize that the Park "has any navigable waters". I finally spoke with the Chief of Outdoor rec. for the park and he said paddling IS ok and legal. Also told me that if there was a need (meaning if we had more run ins with rangers who saw it as illegal) he would change the wording in the Park rule book to state that boaters have authorized use of the creeks as well.
Trevor
Captivating. True adventure. The time, legwork, history, safety, documentation, commuincation, follow thru, sage adivce. Great exchange of shared experince, different eras.
Please continue, hope others follow your lead.
Thank you for sharing
Please continue, hope others follow your lead.
Thank you for sharing
Ain't it like most people, I'm no diffferent, we love to talk on things we don't know about - The Avett Brothers
freeheeled friends
friends getting high
water temp
freeheeled friends
friends getting high
water temp
Nice pictures and videos! I'm a little over an hour away.
It's really hard to catch the creek with enough water above the lower bridge, or at all. I've put on up there...I think three-four times.
The big falls above the bridge(we called it Hoover Falls) has a real nice boof on the right at decent levels. Low water you have to bump down the middle/left center.
If you cleared the lower section you did good! Last time I looked it was full of wood. The one thing I don't like about the creek, as I see you're aware of...the easier water in between the big drops is always bony. When it's not...the creek is jammin!
The section above the second bridge has a couple real nice drops(it's all good) that have always had wood in them. I'd like to hike down in there and clear out the upper section one nice warm weekend. That will require buying a WMA/fishing permit to park.
I had no idea there was such a thing as a Chief of Outdoor rec. for the park. Can you get in touch with the individual again? Got a phone # to get in touch? If they are willing to OK boating in the park so easily I'd try to get them to change the wording in the rule book so there would be no more "misunderstandings". I'm really surprised they OK'ed it so easily...
Also, to anyone heading up there...a few suggestions...
1: If the park caught you clearing out wood I'm almost positive it would NOT be a good thing. I would assume it could fall under destruction of National Park(government) property...so be discrete and cut "just" enough to get through. Do it and get out! I'm not sure what the WMA would say but I would assume it would be similar.
After hearing of Trevor's run in with the clueless Ranger I'd expect it to happen again so take it for what it's worth...That said, We ran into some Rangers clearing trees across the road one day we were headed up to run the creek. We mentioned running the creek and I think their comment was "really!", so I guess it depends on the Ranger you run into.
2: If there are anglers up there during low water attempts(Spring time, early summer) I would not put on and either do a scouting day or go else where. It wouldn't help the boating community if the angling community were to start complaining about boaters scaring the trout away (whether it is true or not). I'm 100% sure the Anglers would win that argument.
The Rapidan IS one of the premier trout streams in the State. 99 times out of 100, when the water is high enough to boat, there won't be any anglers there anyway.
3: Unless you walk the entire creek(not feasible) expect to scout every drop you can't see the bottom of, ie: just about every single rapid! It's very congested(much narrower and tighter stream bed than either fork of the tye but not as steep) and wood can collect at any time, anyplace. Some of the lesser rapids have numerous lines at the top but dry up towards the bottom. Think boat abuse. There are many pinning spots and quite a few undercuts.
It took 5 of us 5 hours to scout 2 miles of creek the first time we ran it!! Yep, I said 5 hours! 5 people scouting a rapid and running it one at a time with safety can eat up a lot of time! I'm sure some could blunder down the same section in forty minutes. I could too after making sure of the lines, tree situation on a previous run. A smaller group would take less time of course.
You can scout a rapid towards the bottom of the run on your way to the put-in and by the time you get back to that rapid the water has dropped and the line has changed.
4: Any accidents up there requiring medical attention would surely get boating banned in short order. So be on your "A" game or run safety for the rest of the group. It can be very easy to get hurt on this creek. Luckily for my buddy he only bruised his hip instead of breaking it. He walked out that day and has not been back since.
I'd been hesitant to "let the cat out of the bag" so to speak, up until last year for some of the reasons stated above. Having a lot of boaters show up with Rangers or anglers around wouldn't be a good thing and could screw it up for the few who take the time and effort to catch it when it's running. In retrospect 5 people was too many. 3 makes a great group. Luckily it's a drive back in to the creek and if it's too low, you've shot yourself in the foot for any other "good" creekin for that day. I think that will keep a lot of folks from taking a chance, going and looking.
Not too many folks bother to look for creeks like this on their own and run the better known(guide book) creeks. Now I figure I'd rather let people know what to expect then just say nothing.
It's a real gem of a creek! Like I said nothing as steep as either fork of the Tye(FOT) but a lot of fun none the less. It's a good "stepping stone" creek from creeks like Gooney Run or Happy Creek near Front Royal to the forks of the Tye and up. It's closer in difficulty to the FOT than the easier creeks mentioned.
See ya'll down stream!
PS: Sorry to highjack your Rose River trip report Trevor!
PPS: I plan on getting up there to run the creek some this year. It's been WAY too long.
It's really hard to catch the creek with enough water above the lower bridge, or at all. I've put on up there...I think three-four times.
The big falls above the bridge(we called it Hoover Falls) has a real nice boof on the right at decent levels. Low water you have to bump down the middle/left center.
If you cleared the lower section you did good! Last time I looked it was full of wood. The one thing I don't like about the creek, as I see you're aware of...the easier water in between the big drops is always bony. When it's not...the creek is jammin!
The section above the second bridge has a couple real nice drops(it's all good) that have always had wood in them. I'd like to hike down in there and clear out the upper section one nice warm weekend. That will require buying a WMA/fishing permit to park.
I had no idea there was such a thing as a Chief of Outdoor rec. for the park. Can you get in touch with the individual again? Got a phone # to get in touch? If they are willing to OK boating in the park so easily I'd try to get them to change the wording in the rule book so there would be no more "misunderstandings". I'm really surprised they OK'ed it so easily...
Also, to anyone heading up there...a few suggestions...
1: If the park caught you clearing out wood I'm almost positive it would NOT be a good thing. I would assume it could fall under destruction of National Park(government) property...so be discrete and cut "just" enough to get through. Do it and get out! I'm not sure what the WMA would say but I would assume it would be similar.
After hearing of Trevor's run in with the clueless Ranger I'd expect it to happen again so take it for what it's worth...That said, We ran into some Rangers clearing trees across the road one day we were headed up to run the creek. We mentioned running the creek and I think their comment was "really!", so I guess it depends on the Ranger you run into.
2: If there are anglers up there during low water attempts(Spring time, early summer) I would not put on and either do a scouting day or go else where. It wouldn't help the boating community if the angling community were to start complaining about boaters scaring the trout away (whether it is true or not). I'm 100% sure the Anglers would win that argument.
The Rapidan IS one of the premier trout streams in the State. 99 times out of 100, when the water is high enough to boat, there won't be any anglers there anyway.
3: Unless you walk the entire creek(not feasible) expect to scout every drop you can't see the bottom of, ie: just about every single rapid! It's very congested(much narrower and tighter stream bed than either fork of the tye but not as steep) and wood can collect at any time, anyplace. Some of the lesser rapids have numerous lines at the top but dry up towards the bottom. Think boat abuse. There are many pinning spots and quite a few undercuts.
It took 5 of us 5 hours to scout 2 miles of creek the first time we ran it!! Yep, I said 5 hours! 5 people scouting a rapid and running it one at a time with safety can eat up a lot of time! I'm sure some could blunder down the same section in forty minutes. I could too after making sure of the lines, tree situation on a previous run. A smaller group would take less time of course.
You can scout a rapid towards the bottom of the run on your way to the put-in and by the time you get back to that rapid the water has dropped and the line has changed.
4: Any accidents up there requiring medical attention would surely get boating banned in short order. So be on your "A" game or run safety for the rest of the group. It can be very easy to get hurt on this creek. Luckily for my buddy he only bruised his hip instead of breaking it. He walked out that day and has not been back since.
Captivating. True adventure. The time, legwork, history, safety, documentation, commuincation, follow thru, sage adivce. Great exchange of shared experince, different eras.
Please continue, hope others follow your lead.
Thank you for sharing
I'd been hesitant to "let the cat out of the bag" so to speak, up until last year for some of the reasons stated above. Having a lot of boaters show up with Rangers or anglers around wouldn't be a good thing and could screw it up for the few who take the time and effort to catch it when it's running. In retrospect 5 people was too many. 3 makes a great group. Luckily it's a drive back in to the creek and if it's too low, you've shot yourself in the foot for any other "good" creekin for that day. I think that will keep a lot of folks from taking a chance, going and looking.
Not too many folks bother to look for creeks like this on their own and run the better known(guide book) creeks. Now I figure I'd rather let people know what to expect then just say nothing.
It's a real gem of a creek! Like I said nothing as steep as either fork of the Tye(FOT) but a lot of fun none the less. It's a good "stepping stone" creek from creeks like Gooney Run or Happy Creek near Front Royal to the forks of the Tye and up. It's closer in difficulty to the FOT than the easier creeks mentioned.
See ya'll down stream!
PS: Sorry to highjack your Rose River trip report Trevor!
PPS: I plan on getting up there to run the creek some this year. It's been WAY too long.
Bob
Thanks Bob for the rest of the info. My sentiments exactly! I've done pretty much most of my activity up there when it has been poor weather or nasty cold outside to avoid any possible contact. A good portion of the creek is hidden from view so being seen isn't a huge problem. But yes, anglers do have the right-away on the creeks.
I'll see if I can find that number for the guy I spoke to at the park office.
I'll see if I can find that number for the guy I spoke to at the park office.
Trevor